tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2001916466643391714.comments2023-04-26T15:33:05.422+01:00QuIRPQuirp Mailhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/05704459508884713165noreply@blogger.comBlogger274125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2001916466643391714.post-68925812028825499292010-01-21T15:07:38.740+00:002010-01-21T15:07:38.740+00:00Quirp mail is me, harlan, using the blogs account....Quirp mail is me, harlan, using the blogs account. *:O)Quirp Mailhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05704459508884713165noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2001916466643391714.post-23688300478229968992010-01-21T15:06:43.997+00:002010-01-21T15:06:43.997+00:00Hi Guys,
lets continue this over here, at the Loga...Hi Guys,<br />lets continue this over <a href="http://logancres.blogspot.com/2010/01/unpacking-atonement-project.html" rel="nofollow">here, at the Logan Cres blog.</a> This project and comments were copied over there.<br /><br />Thanks in advance.Quirp Mailhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05704459508884713165noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2001916466643391714.post-45468977711951808762010-01-19T00:02:18.240+00:002010-01-19T00:02:18.240+00:00HQ,
I also forgot to throw in Philippians 2:6-11 ...HQ,<br /><br />I also forgot to throw in Philippians 2:6-11 for inclusion, since it refers to the crucifixion. There seems to have been a scholarly consensus that it represents a pre-Pauline hymn, but I also have found a number of arguments against that view by those claiming it is a Pauline composition. Either way, it is a reference to the crucifixion (and a high Christology, but that is a different matter) that would have pre-dated the ones in the Gospel.<br /><br />1 Corinthians 1:23 also mentions the crucifixion as well. (there are probably some more and if I come across them I'll post them. We can always use more data, right?:-P)<br /><br />Where did the idea of atonement come from?<br /><br />Well, just looking at the text it is not clear, but it is widely assumed (and I see no reason to disagree) that the accounts in the gospels reflect earlier oral traditions. Indeed, Paul refers to a teaching that he has received in 1 Corinthians 15:3 and I have seen many scholarly opinions asserting that this was a teaching that Paul received from Jesus' disciples at some point after his conversion. While Jesus does not directly articulate this idea of the atonement, the Gospels record him making reference to his death as something pointed to by the scriptures. <br /><br />The full implications of this are never discussed although we should not rule out that Jesus may have done this (Luke's Emmaus road dialog leaves that possibility open in Luke 24:25-27: "He said to them, "How foolish you are, and how slow of heart to believe all that the prophets have spoken! Did not the Christ have to suffer these things and then enter his glory?" And beginning with Moses and all the Prophets, he explained to them what was said in all the Scriptures concerning himself.”). The text cannot tell us for certain where it came from, but it is very likely that it represents an oral testimony dating to the early followers of Jesus, and it is at least possible that it may have derived from Jesus himself.Matt Khttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16499444028818271647noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2001916466643391714.post-79413224034968182212010-01-18T18:21:41.596+00:002010-01-18T18:21:41.596+00:00Mattk,
If the the idea of the atonement predates p...Mattk,<br />If the the idea of the atonement predates paul, and Jesus didn't say it about himself, where did it come from?Harlan Quinnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17299065217853196918noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2001916466643391714.post-69748197182835629982010-01-18T18:19:11.635+00:002010-01-18T18:19:11.635+00:00thats great matt, I'll incorporate it. I don&#...thats great matt, I'll incorporate it. I don't mind taking it slow, it allows me to work out other ideas that are derived from this.Harlan Quinnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17299065217853196918noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2001916466643391714.post-66940416652570228732010-01-17T21:19:44.817+00:002010-01-17T21:19:44.817+00:00Hey HQ and Rich,
I haven’t forgotten about this, ...Hey HQ and Rich,<br /><br />I haven’t forgotten about this, I just haven’t had a chance to start working on it yet. I’ve looked over the charts/schemas that you’ve posted so far Harlan, and if it’s all right I’ll just throw out a few data points for you to plug in (let me know if it would be better to do things another way).<br /><br />The recognition of the death/resurrection of Jesus as significant by the earliest believers:<br /><br />1 Corinthians 15:3 “For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures”<br />-Most scholars recognize this as an extremely early Christian creed (and 1 Corinthians 15:3-5 is usually not disputed as an authentic early creed, although verses 6-8 have been more contentious). As Kirk R. MacGreggor points out in his article “1 Corinthians 15:3b-6a, 7 and the bodily resurrection of Jesus”, even the Jesus Seminar dates this tradition to no later than 33 A.D. (MacGreggor also notes that the most widely accepted date for the crucifixion is 30 A.D.). This shows a very early tradition of a belief that Jesus “died for our sins,” giving the idea of Christ’s death as atoning a very early pedigree even in the eyes of skeptical scholars.<br /><br />As for biblical testimony for the crucifixion:<br /><br />Matthew 27:35-37 “When they had crucified him, they divided up his clothes by casting lots. And sitting down they kept watch over him. Above his head they placed the written charge against him: this is Jesus, the king of the Jews.”<br /><br />Luke 23:33 “When they came to the place called the Skull, there they crucified him, along with the criminals – one on his right, the other on his left.”<br /><br />John 19:17-18 “Carrying his own cross, he went out to the place of the Skull (which in Aramaic is called Golgotha). Here they crucified him, and with him two others – one on each side and Jesus in the middle.”<br /><br />As for extra-biblical information, we should probably include Josephus’ Testamonium Flavianum. While highly controversial and almost certainly corrupted by later Christian interpolations, there does seem to be an original, authentic statement about Jesus and his crucifixion under Pilate.<br /><br />Also, there is some interesting stuff on the wiki page http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historicity_of_jesus. Just one glance at the talk page on the article will show how much debate there still is, but the article does a decent job of highlighting the broad contours of most discussions on the topic.<br /><br />I want to respond with some thoughts on the document on the concept of sin, but I’m still clarifying my thoughts and don’t have time to flesh them out more at the moment. Hopefully I’ll be able to do that soon.Matt Khttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16499444028818271647noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2001916466643391714.post-3688853664349214202010-01-15T11:15:08.551+00:002010-01-15T11:15:08.551+00:00Did you donate yet?
Get hot!
I couldn't resi...Did you donate yet? <br />Get hot!<br /><br />I couldn't resist.....Harlan Quinnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17299065217853196918noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2001916466643391714.post-92113823295271156102010-01-15T11:14:04.730+00:002010-01-15T11:14:04.730+00:00RichD,
did you forget that the Unites States IS th...RichD,<br />did you forget that the <a href="http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=121954311" rel="nofollow">Unites States IS the THE GREAT SATAN?</a><br />You guys are The Body of Chris(py critter).<br />*:O)Harlan Quinnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17299065217853196918noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2001916466643391714.post-19112903464805805572010-01-15T10:59:12.617+00:002010-01-15T10:59:12.617+00:00Luckily the US didn't sign a pact with the dev...Luckily the US didn't sign a pact with the devil when we freed ourselves from English rule. Otherwise things like tornados and hurricanes and such would also be divine retribution.Richhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05816549810869986623noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2001916466643391714.post-66699688349743090952010-01-14T13:49:54.906+00:002010-01-14T13:49:54.906+00:00I'd like to use whatever and how many source a...I'd like to use whatever and how many source are practical. I don't want to go overboard, meaning, get bored or fed up with it, i'd like to make it useful, but fun at the same time.<br /><br />Since this is "new thing" for me as well, I'm learning as I go using principles, techniques and methods borrowed from business, and Microsofts Sharepoint server technology. This google docs really competes well with sharepoint server if you ask me.<br /><br />I just drafted up another document for guidance and perspective, literally an hour ago. here's the <a href="https://docs.google.com/Doc?docid=0AUtdP8uExBNdZGo0enE0Ml8zODdjdzV3emJndg&hl=en" rel="nofollow">link</a>. I hope it works for you. let me know if not.<br /><br />Basically it demonstrates how you try something, see how it goes, then improve it then try again.<br /><br />thats what I intend with this.<br /><br />I's also like to point out that this "cycle of action", is a logical structure, naturally occuring process, identified and symbolized by humans, to capture a 'best practice', to remember it and improving successful outcomes.<br /><br />It also is a logical structure of how christianity and religions in general change over time.<br />same thing.<br />would you agree?Harlan Quinnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17299065217853196918noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2001916466643391714.post-81227313696551876972010-01-14T12:28:53.671+00:002010-01-14T12:28:53.671+00:00Hi HQ,
As I think about it maybe do we need a lis...Hi HQ,<br /><br />As I think about it maybe do we need a list of sources that you would like to use? Are we confined to say history books and the bible? Or are other sources also fair game? Just thinking and asking questions :)Richhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05816549810869986623noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2001916466643391714.post-1426886508537185622010-01-14T05:29:40.120+00:002010-01-14T05:29:40.120+00:00mattk,
that was me, harlan, logged in as quirpmail...mattk,<br />that was me, harlan, logged in as quirpmail to handle quirps news alerts.Quirp Mailhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05704459508884713165noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2001916466643391714.post-89568537426007589752010-01-14T05:26:53.202+00:002010-01-14T05:26:53.202+00:00well,
How would you like to do it?
one way we co...well, <br />How would you like to do it?<br /><br />one way we could do it, which is generally what I"m attempting is just to take the diagram one piece at a time and ask analytical questions about it such as<br />JESUS WAS CRUCIFIED<br />"what do we know about this?"<br />"how do we know about this..."<br />etc<br /><br />so if you agree, I could just add analytical questions and collaborators could answer them, then based on the answers I could fill in the pieces in the diagram, and you all could critique it in real time.<br /><br />At this point, <br /> I think what I propose would go a long way to avoid building bias into the diagram.Quirp Mailhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05704459508884713165noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2001916466643391714.post-66129799413091139092010-01-14T04:29:16.365+00:002010-01-14T04:29:16.365+00:00HQ,
I'm still not sure how to contribute any ...HQ,<br /><br />I'm still not sure how to contribute any content to the Google doc, unless you were just planning to craft the document taking in Rich and my comments in account.<br /><br />Also, could you please give me a brief overview of how you plan on developing this project? I see the document on the crucifixion seems to be aimed at matters of historicity, so are you envisioning looking at the sources that inform the idea of atonement vis a vis the crucifixion before proceeding? I'm just trying to picture the scope of what you are hoping to develop so I can better understand how to contribute. I'll hold off providing any content for the moment until I have a better idea of what kind of content you are interested in evaluating for this first diagram. Thanks!Matt Khttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16499444028818271647noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2001916466643391714.post-84498790947864037762010-01-13T10:45:51.013+00:002010-01-13T10:45:51.013+00:00I'm reviewing the araucaria argument diagrammi...I'm reviewing the araucaria argument diagramming software to refresh my memory. <br />It'll be easier to just copy the text in it and generate the diagrams that way. Its what its made for.<br /><br />Do you have any guidelines or criteria you want to enable?Harlan Quinnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17299065217853196918noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2001916466643391714.post-34326044614319182592010-01-13T10:38:06.698+00:002010-01-13T10:38:06.698+00:00I look forward to this!I look forward to this!Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2001916466643391714.post-21135895463756101092010-01-13T04:31:40.879+00:002010-01-13T04:31:40.879+00:00agreed!
we all have more similarities than differe...agreed!<br />we all have more similarities than differences.Harlan Quinnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17299065217853196918noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2001916466643391714.post-80477830192753543572010-01-13T04:31:22.155+00:002010-01-13T04:31:22.155+00:00Oh, and I am glad to see that I have earned the lo...Oh, and I am glad to see that I have earned the lofty title of "relatively nice guy" for the document:-P Here's to some friendly disagreement and hopefully mutual edification.Matt Khttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16499444028818271647noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2001916466643391714.post-67885111113958615702010-01-13T04:26:14.686+00:002010-01-13T04:26:14.686+00:00Sounds good to me as well!
I look forward to worki...Sounds good to me as well!<br />I look forward to working on this with the two of you.Matt Khttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16499444028818271647noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2001916466643391714.post-21146223197411242112010-01-13T04:25:00.201+00:002010-01-13T04:25:00.201+00:00guys there is no rush.
you can't rush quality...guys there is no rush. <br />you can't rush quality, it breaks its equilibrium.Harlan Quinnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17299065217853196918noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2001916466643391714.post-59099596182312500852010-01-13T04:16:23.016+00:002010-01-13T04:16:23.016+00:00Sounds great! I'll have a look at the new link...Sounds great! I'll have a look at the new link. It's pinewood derby time for me and my son and since he is 8 he needs more help. that will limit my spare time some but I do want to contribute so I will set aside time to devote to this.Richhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05816549810869986623noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2001916466643391714.post-28020689682440696952010-01-13T04:07:08.784+00:002010-01-13T04:07:08.784+00:00guys,
here's the link to the new document &quo...guys,<br />here's the <a href="https://docs.google.com/Doc?docid=0AaYFvhvJSRs5ZGdkazl4cDNfOWNycXAyOWRr&hl=en" rel="nofollow">link</a> to the new document "Back From The Crucifixion". Hopefully we can make this one relatively 'bias free' avoiding Matts criticism of the first draft.Harlan Quinnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17299065217853196918noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2001916466643391714.post-86912273980440457742010-01-13T03:30:34.316+00:002010-01-13T03:30:34.316+00:00Hi Richd,
great, then lets close the first documen...Hi Richd,<br />great, then lets close the first document, and open a second one adding mattk as a contributor, and for now, I'll handle the diagramming from what you two write.<br />agreed?<br />I really would like to develop a good a diagram of the logical infrastructure with the help of christians.Harlan Quinnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17299065217853196918noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2001916466643391714.post-15304573307474727392010-01-12T22:25:40.424+00:002010-01-12T22:25:40.424+00:00We also had a problem here, Utah that is, with a g...We also had a problem here, Utah that is, with a guy that used peote(spelling) for religious purposes and he wasn't suppose to be able to. Its terrible that we can't learn how to interact with people of different backgrounds. I mean we seem to do just fine even with iour vast differences in beliefs. I feel like I could be comfortable discussion communicatins, politics, religion, or any number of topics with you and have disagreements without hostility or resentment. To me stuff like this article is this breakdown on a large scale, inability to be tolerant of others. We spend so much time trying to figure who can do what,m we forget to enjoy each others differences.Richhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05816549810869986623noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2001916466643391714.post-44739230734770614282010-01-12T21:23:14.206+00:002010-01-12T21:23:14.206+00:00Hi Matt and HQ,
I am learning as I go also. I hav...Hi Matt and HQ,<br /><br />I am learning as I go also. I haven't figured out all the google doc features yet but that will come with use. I just started with commenting and changing text color. It's small but I also figured that HQ might update the diagram as he sees things that need it. I will try to do some of that at some point but until I get more familiar with it I don't feel comfortable doing that yet. Diagraming is an art and I didn't do so well in art. My strength is apreciating art not making it. :)<br /><br />I don't think that penal substitution really work to describe the atonement. Christ was not "made" to take the punishment. He was a willing participant in his part of the atonement to giver all humans the path back to God.<br /><br />If you saw you brother suffering from something that you knew would kill him, cancer lets say, and you knew that you could survive the cancer. If there was a way that the cancer could be transfered to you with no trace left in your brother, and you could survive the cancer and no trace would be left in yoiu either, so that the cancer and each of you live free of this cancer. Would you do it? You would have to realize too that you will suffer pain and everything that goes with the cancer.Richhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05816549810869986623noreply@blogger.com