tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2001916466643391714.post7800078443627884923..comments2023-04-26T15:33:05.422+01:00Comments on QuIRP: Where Does the Soul Fit?Quirp Mailhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/05704459508884713165noreply@blogger.comBlogger56125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2001916466643391714.post-73478559466819219432010-01-05T20:19:04.052+00:002010-01-05T20:19:04.052+00:00Its just wierd to find what things get filtered an...Its just wierd to find what things get filtered and what doesn't. When all else fails I save it as a draft in an email then I can copy paste back to the comments. I'll find something that works. I did have a good holiday thanks, I hope you did too.Richhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05816549810869986623noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2001916466643391714.post-87548773380936533452009-12-29T14:39:01.990+00:002009-12-29T14:39:01.990+00:00Hi Richd,
no problem. take your time, we have as l...Hi Richd,<br />no problem. take your time, we have as long as we want.<br />I really do hope you have great holiday and new year.<br /><br />I'll get the unpacking post up in the next few days, I've been busy with 'background processes'.<br /><br />Try working with <a href="http://sites.google.com/" rel="nofollow">Google sites</a>. It has the capability to work like a simple version of google docs. Just create a site, log in and create a page. It just takes a minute to get to the point where you're creating your document.<br /><br />I used it like google docs for a while until I started playing with google docs spreadsheets and presentations.<br /><br />alternately try looking for some other online document services. Microsoft Office has office live or some such thing.<br /><br />I'm sure google docs and office live aren't the only games in town. I'd bet a soda on it.<br /><br />*:o)Harlan Quinnhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17299065217853196918noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2001916466643391714.post-61238955435650831282009-12-29T14:23:40.216+00:002009-12-29T14:23:40.216+00:00Hi HQ,
Just in case I can't get back on here...Hi HQ,<br /> Just in case I can't get back on here before the new year begins, I'll make sure you have this toast on your mind for the new year, it's been my favorite for several years now. <br /><br />May the best of today be the worst of tommorrow!<br /><br />With that said, I'll be working more on unpacking, and I do plan on beginning with that post on wednesday, but stranger things have happened. My work internet filter doesn't let me into google docs, wierd, but I can get to fantasy football on cbs sports which should filter out under games, like the other fantasy sports sites do. OK done rambling, take care.Richhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05816549810869986623noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2001916466643391714.post-74497508723628187932009-12-29T04:36:39.476+00:002009-12-29T04:36:39.476+00:00Hi Richd,
welcome back!
I hope you had a great chr...Hi Richd,<br />welcome back!<br />I hope you had a great christmas!<br />I'll post the "unpacking" by wednesday.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17353286859864448748noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2001916466643391714.post-13409515653565133532009-12-28T21:31:34.161+00:002009-12-28T21:31:34.161+00:00I was yo yoing while you were juggling. I need my ...I was yo yoing while you were juggling. I need my duncan thoughRichhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05816549810869986623noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2001916466643391714.post-56894504729308761572009-12-28T20:16:02.413+00:002009-12-28T20:16:02.413+00:00Sure make a post about it. I will put the unpackin...Sure make a post about it. I will put the unpacking in my google docs so I can be ready to post it in the comments when you get it ready. Although you might already be ready to post it. Well either way that sounds good. Hope you had a good weekend.Richhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05816549810869986623noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2001916466643391714.post-7010714665933330012009-12-22T16:56:51.620+00:002009-12-22T16:56:51.620+00:00Since this "unpacking" is outside the sc...Since this "unpacking" is outside the scope of the original article, would you mind if I take my "unpacking" comment and turn it into a post called "unpacking the atonement" or something and we continue it there?Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17353286859864448748noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2001916466643391714.post-91068424980986143152009-12-22T16:53:47.127+00:002009-12-22T16:53:47.127+00:00take your time, your the only one at the bar.
whil...take your time, your the only one at the bar.<br />while your thinking, i'm going to practice juggling.<br />no really,<br />i'm not kidding...Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17353286859864448748noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2001916466643391714.post-22643885950648402312009-12-22T16:06:22.228+00:002009-12-22T16:06:22.228+00:00Hi HQ,
Yes I would be happy to unpack this for yo...Hi HQ,<br /><br />Yes I would be happy to unpack this for you. You might have to give me some time since today is busy right now, but that could change with any luck.Richhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05816549810869986623noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2001916466643391714.post-46025818642329616222009-12-22T05:11:09.651+00:002009-12-22T05:11:09.651+00:00Hi Richd,
I'm trying to understand your answer...Hi Richd,<br />I'm trying to understand your answer to your question, so below I've tried to "unpack" it for closer inspection.<br /><br />would you mind correcting and filling in the missing pieces please?<br />=====<br />God shows mercy <br />and is 100% justice<br />because he is required by, or is a consequence of his perfect state<br /><br />Gods perfect state depends on the atonement.<br /><br />* The atonement is defined as _________________<br /><br />* Mercy is defined as _________________<br /><br />* The atonement is merciful because _____________<br /><br />* The atonement is 100% Just because ____________<br /><br />* Justice is defined as ____________________<br /><br />if we repent of our sins <br />AND<br />the atonement has been done<br />There is no need for added punishment<br /><br />* Normally there is a need for punishment because _________________<br /><br />* Normally punishment for our sins is ___________________<br /><br />* Our sins are described as _________________<br /><br />* Repenting of our sins is not sufficient to fulfill the criteria for punishment because _________________<br /><br />But the atonement is not necessary in all cases for example, Free Agency.<br /><br />* Free Agency is defined as __________________.<br /><br />* The atonement is not necessary in cases of Free Agency because ___________.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17353286859864448748noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2001916466643391714.post-87437963974438369962009-12-21T21:13:38.574+00:002009-12-21T21:13:38.574+00:00Hi HQ,
My answer to my own question is the atonem...Hi HQ,<br /><br />My answer to my own question is the atonement. I also say this knowing that you don't believe in God and knowing what you think about the atonement. That is something the atonement made possible, it gives God the ability to have justice completely fulfilled while allowing him to be merciful. If we repent of our sins, the justice has already been fulfilled by Christ so God can fully forgive the transgression without the need for added punishment. You don't have to use the atonement, free agency, but it is available for all. Without the atonement it is impossible to have a perfect God.Richhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05816549810869986623noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2001916466643391714.post-76077269372756722692009-12-21T16:03:22.761+00:002009-12-21T16:03:22.761+00:00Hi Richd,
So now I ask you, how can God show any m...Hi Richd,<br /><b><i>So now I ask you, how can God show any mercy at all if he is required by his own perfect state to be 100% just?</i></b><br />that is a great question and I ache to see your answer to it.<br /><br />My answer is "its a fallacy".<br />Gods have not been shown to exist, and neither has perfection.<br /><br />God are like the higgs-boson (the god particle) or string theory its just an unproven hypothesis, no matter much it would explain if it were true.<br /><br />Its like saying, <br /><br />thomas: "If superman depends on a yellow sun for his superpowers, what happens to him when he's flying between solar systems"? <br /><br />judas: "he'd die"<br /><br />Paul: "no he wouldn't because he didn't!"Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17353286859864448748noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2001916466643391714.post-32129784846142144242009-12-21T15:23:21.165+00:002009-12-21T15:23:21.165+00:00In a nutshell, we are only partially accountable f...<i>In a nutshell, we are only partially accountable for our actions.</i><br /><br />That does clear it up thanks. That's pretty close to my understanding of accountability. I also think that we talk so much about acountable for bad things that we tend to forget that the whole picture includes being accountable for good things also and recieving rewards for good. That is also just. Usually God's justice is mentioned when Christians are talking how we are all doomed and deserve to burn in hell. Where is that same justice that says we do good things and should be rewarded for them? Is justice only one sided? I say nay.<br />But for God to be 100% just he would have to give a consequence for each action both good and bad, even missing one is less than 100%. So now I ask you, how can God show any mercy at all if he is required by his own perfect state to be 100% just?Richhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05816549810869986623noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2001916466643391714.post-21590607946090788502009-12-21T14:09:32.696+00:002009-12-21T14:09:32.696+00:00Hey HQ, link as promised
Here is the one I was thi...Hey HQ, link as promised<br /><a href="http://discovermagazine.com/2009/jul-aug/15-brain-stop-paying-attention-zoning-out-crucial-mental-state" rel="nofollow">Here</a> is the one I was thinking about. Zoning out being an important mental state.<br /><br />But since you said this, "<i>Now lets look at the seven deadly sins. There are no biological inhibitors for those babies,</i>" I thought <a href="http://discovermagazine.com/2009/sep/05-i-didn.t-sin-it-was-my-brain" rel="nofollow">this</a> might be relevant. Particularly glutony which appears to have a biological inhibitor, being less sensative to dopamine's rewarding effects.Richhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05816549810869986623noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2001916466643391714.post-33036460931771237772009-12-21T08:18:37.379+00:002009-12-21T08:18:37.379+00:00Look at that block in the functional block diagram...Look at that block in the functional block diagram handling intent.<br />a surgeon or a seizure can influence at least two brain areas that influence desire, need, and consequently, intention.<br /><br />lets look at some environmental stimuli that affect our desire and intentions.<br />- Most people get nauseous when they smell vomit<br />- Most people do not want to eat poop<br />- Most people do not want to eat raw meat<br />- Most people do not get addicted to alcohol<br />- Most animals including people do not get sexually attracted to a relative, its biological<br /><br />- Some Asians are "allergic" to alcohol, so they don't have a choice in becoming alcohol addicted<br />- Most people don't have a choice whether they throw up in the presence of vomit or not<br />- Most people do not have a choice on whether poop is appetizing, and will get sick if they eat it<br />- Some people, like me, are disgusted by rare meat, and do not like the taste of blood.<br /><br />- These are verifiable NEGATIVE INFLUENCES on our free will. If we do them anyway, we really have to have a extraordinary intent. So most people don't do those things that they are predispositioned against, and no one complains about it infringing on our "God Given Free Will". In fact, its justifiable because most of those things minimize harm.<br /><br />Now lets look at the seven deadly sins. There are no biological inhibitors for those babies, in fact we seem to be wired to prefer them, so in effect, the game is rigged for us to do things that send us to hell but not to eat poop, or vomit.<br /><br />To say that this situation supports Divine Judgment is just incoherent.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17353286859864448748noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2001916466643391714.post-79873041496150137332009-12-21T08:15:34.587+00:002009-12-21T08:15:34.587+00:00Hi Richd,
Yes it can but you seem to want to say t...Hi Richd,<br /><b><i>Yes it can but you seem to want to say that because it can be artificially created none of us can be held accountable for actions.</i></b><br />no, I'm sorry if I'm giving you that impression.<br />I'm saying that it is evident that we do not have 100% control of our actions. Therefore, the type of judgment that Christianity promotes cannot be morally justified. In a nutshell, we are only partially accountable for our actions. That is my position for the record.<br /><br />whether you admit it or not, you and I and everyone DEPEND on a network of biological signaling going on in our brains. If your brain tells you to be afraid you will be.<br /><br />Someone in my family has panic disorder. They become afraid when they "exceed their stress threshold". Just like a machine that exceeds its tolerance, they break down.<br />Periodically, I have to comfort them and talk them down. I have bi-polar people in my family. Their behavior is very erratic. One moment they intend harm with insults, one moment they don't and are remorseful.<br /><br />Pregnant women are famous for cravings, so are addicts. There is a context of environmental stimulus that will INFLUENCE or IMPEDE your free will.<br /><br />Your consciousness is at the mercy of the physiological infrastructure of your brain.<br /><br /><b><i>You remember I linked you some time ago to the LDS ideas about after life and even you aren't as screwed from that perspective as Christians would have you believe.</i></b><br />but how do you know that?<br />was there any two person integrity on the LDS scriptures? Why can't you accept the bible on the same grounds you accept LDS scriptures, or disregard LDS scriptures for the same criteria that you disregard the bible?<br /><br />Where are the original texts? How convenient they went missing.<br /><br /><b><i>don't remember if you have said it or not, repeatedly talking about it being a better position.</i></b><br />my position is agnostic, and I behave as if there is no god in my speech and actions. That is why I qualify as an atheist.<br /><br />If god would correspond with me as you are, I'm open to that. Its as open as I get. If Jesus, Allah, Yahweh, Vishnu, Brama, Shiva or Mazda can't work with that, its an unfortunate circumstance.<br /><br /><b><i>Plenty are, but not everyone can be a scientist.</i></b><br />Then why aren't they all the same religion as you? <br />If you're right, surely the majority of them would agree with you. Instead, they are just as divided, and even less religious than the normal population. Someone said 40% believe in a god, fine, 60% don't and that 40% that do believe are atheists with respect to each other. Islamic scientists are atheistic with respect to christian, Hindu or what have you.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17353286859864448748noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2001916466643391714.post-41785313431137943002009-12-21T08:11:04.989+00:002009-12-21T08:11:04.989+00:00Hi richd, post the link, i'm intersted.
thanks...Hi richd, post the link, i'm intersted.<br />thanksAnonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17353286859864448748noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2001916466643391714.post-18445252344030365812009-12-20T15:49:36.050+00:002009-12-20T15:49:36.050+00:00I almost forgot I also have a discover article you...I almost forgot I also have a discover article you will be interested in but again I spent more time then I intended with the last post so I better get some work done first.Richhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05816549810869986623noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2001916466643391714.post-16198829195627038932009-12-20T15:46:39.700+00:002009-12-20T15:46:39.700+00:00Hi HQ,
Normal people don't do things with the ...Hi HQ,<br /><i>Normal people don't do things with the intent to harm do they?</i><br /><br />You are probably right, but I just think that because someone does something that normally doesn't happen, doesn't have to put them with a system failure that makes them no longer normal. It may be rare, in fact I'm certain its rare, but not out of the question, in my mind.<br /><br /><i>It can be artificially created.</i><br /><br />Yes it can but you seem to want to say that because it can be artificially created none of us can be held accuntable for actions.<br /><br /><i>Normally, unless i'm mistaken about this, people that go to prison get out and go back.</i><br /><br />Our prison system is seriously flawed. I don't label people as evil, I think people do evil things, but there is no way I can tell if a person is evil or not.<br /><br /><i>And if the atheists are right, no one is screwed if they are not screwed on earth.</i><br /><br />Based on my observations that doesn't leave many people not screwed. ;) You remember I linked you some time ago to the LDS ideas about after life and even you aren't as screwed from that perspective as Christians would have you believe.<br /><br /><i>theists sometimes fallback, as you have, on the old, "I don't know if I'm right or not but..."</i><br /><br />Actually I didn't fall back on I don't know if I'm right or not, I stay with I am pretty convinced of being right but I'll leave open the idea that I am wrong, and that is the same thing I have heard John and several others say, don't remember if you have said it or not, repeatedly talking about it being a better position.<br /><br /><i>They don't know period</i><br />That depends on what you are talking about.<br /><br /><i>In my opinion, religious people should be the scientists.</i><br /><br />Plenty are, but not everyone can be a scientist. I can do my best to learn about a broad range of things, which I think I do a decent job. But I don't agree that science always disonfirms religious beliefs. Take the LDS Word of Wisdom for example. Would you say that smoking, drinking, and drugs are not harmful to us? Even though science says that a glass of wine a day is good for you, some people can't stop at a glass, so the best defaalt is none and find that benefit from another souce. The tobacco industry had scientists on their side saying that smoking didn't cause cancer, according to an article I just read about a week ago. And even drugs that are helpful to us can have very harmful side effects. My daughter is a prime example of cough medicine gone wrong. Do I blame medical science? No. Do I think that cough medicine is evil? No. The doctor made his recommendation based on the best information he had available to him at the time and it turned out really bad. While science may not confirm the flood or miracles or the exsistance of God, it does confirm beliefs.<br /><br /><i>If we don't treat "evil people" as "malfunctioning people", and treat the disease, instead of the symptoms, then "evil" is never going to be eradicated. As long as people see "evil" as an object, or a thing, instead of a cumulative category indicative of a failure in a system, then we're never going to understand it or be able to deal with it.</i><br /><br />I agree with you. Putting someone in prison might work as a reminder if they self correct, and that does happen sometimes. But if it doesn't we have to do more to help them. We put so much emphasis on the bad that we are forgetting that we also have good consequences for good actions and one of the best things for making alot of people happier and better is service. Also confirmed by science(I wish I could find the article I'm am remebering about this) and that is central to the life of Christ-Service.<br /><br />I have more to say about the justice/mercy comment I made before but it will have to wait because I rambled on a little too long.Richhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05816549810869986623noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2001916466643391714.post-70998078240508587062009-12-20T09:14:59.032+00:002009-12-20T09:14:59.032+00:00"So I don't see a problem with judging in...<b><i>"So I don't see a problem with judging intention because I see it a a difference maker."</i></b><br />okay, but where did the intention come from? Look at the diagram, a doctor can INSTILL an intention in a person. It can be artificially created. It has a biological base. Looking for where that intention came from is what is important, not just saying they are evil and should spend five years in prison. Chances are thats not going to do squat. <br /><br />Normally, unless i'm mistaken about this, people that go to prison get out and go back. They are not fixed. Call them evil if you want, but you might as well call a dog that bites every chance it gets evil too. Either the dog has a disease or its afraid. I know because my dog has a disease that makes him afraid of his own shadow, but he'll make you think he's going to tear your throat out. We give him shots every month, but to get him not to bark at a specific someone takes conditioning with time and treats and repetition.<br /><br /><b><i>"We may be completely wrong and the hindus are right."</i></b><br />if the hindus are right, you're screwed, but fortunately not as screwed as if the christians or muslims are right. And if the atheists are right, no one is screwed if they are not screwed on earth. Thats why we have to get over judging and labels and fix the causes to make the world a better place now, instead of throwing up our hands and saying "its evil and out of our control, all we can do is give it to god and hope for the best".<br /><br />Richd, theists sometimes fallback, as you have, on the old, "I don't know if I'm right or not but..." and then talk about justifying the existence, and labeling, and consequences of evil people. If they don't know if they are right or not, they have no justification for judging, labeling or their plan for dealing with the consequences. <br /><br />They don't know period, should admit it, and start rolling their sleeves up to learn about the "system" so they can fix it. In my opinion, religious people should be the scientists. Science should fundamentally confirm religious belief, but it actually does the opposite. When you know how something works, they mystery goes away, but at least you know where to begin to fix it.<br /><br />If we don't treat "evil people" as "malfunctioning people", and treat the disease, instead of the symptoms, then "evil" is never going to be eradicated. As long as people see "evil" as an object, or a thing, instead of a cumulative category indicative of a failure in a system, then we're never going to understand it or be able to deal with it.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17353286859864448748noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2001916466643391714.post-4464294373958182202009-12-20T09:11:33.038+00:002009-12-20T09:11:33.038+00:00"Once you understand that a behavior is bad o...<b><i>"Once you understand that a behavior is bad or wrong or misguided(pick your poison) and you continue doing it, doesn't that bring intention into the equation?"</i></b><br />of course,<br /><br /><b><i>"Agreed, and I'm not even going to say that I know normal people commit murder. But just because it's rare and just because it normally doesn't happen doesn't exclude normal people by your definition from being able to commit murder."</i></b><br />what I'm arguing is that the definition of normal will include some harmful acts, but the harm is minimal. Lying because you're late for work, or don't want to go to lunch with certain people, or to gain some advantage.<br />But lying with the intent to harm is not something that normal people do. When they do it, the become outside the norm don't they?<br />the same with murder, when someone does it, the fall outside the norm.<br /><br />to me its incoherent to say that sometimes normal people will commit murder, when murdering is not a characteristic you'd attribute to a normal person.<br /><br />My definition of normal is probabilistic, it contains some potential for harmful behavior, but when the behavior falls outside the range of behaviors we would attribute to a normal person, at that point they have had a "breakdown" in the sytem, and that "breakdown" needs to be investigated to see if it can be fixed. <br /><br />If something thinks that putting a tumor-created-pedophile in prison for two years will activate the emotioanl signalling he needs to control himself when he gets out let them put in the same neighborhood as thier kids, but I wouldn't let my kids any where near him until he gets the tumor out.<br /><br />Likewise, if a preachers wife kills him with a shotgun, something has broken down in her. If your teen starts habitually taking drugs, something has broken down in him/her, yada, yada, yada.<br /><br />Evil seems to be cumulative. At what point does someone "become evil"? When they reach the point that they are doing things with the intent to harm?<br />Normal people don't do things with the intent to harm do they?Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17353286859864448748noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2001916466643391714.post-78477412208006819222009-12-19T18:45:35.206+00:002009-12-19T18:45:35.206+00:00Hi HQ,
But what do you mean by NORMAL and what do...Hi HQ,<br /><br /><i>But what do you mean by NORMAL and what do you mean by BAD?</i><br /><br />I can't say I have a good definition but I was looking at your original post and where you were talking about the two and used those terms. I am trying to make sure I understand you so I can have an effective conversation.<br /><br />I'll be able to get a little more specific in some areas now.<br /><br /><i> we don't intend to make mistakes. We get judged on our intentions don't we, so mistakes really shouldn't be included in any talk of judging bad behavior.</i><br /><br />I agree we don't intend to make mistakes and that we get judged on our intentions. The only time I would think that mistakes would come into play for judging bad behavior is if the mistake is repeated. At some point you move from mistake to intentional. Once you understand that a behavior is bad or wrong or misguided(pick your poison) and you continue doing it, doesn't that bring intention into the equation?<br /><br /><i>Murder is rare, it doesn't normally happen.</i><br /><br />Agreed, and I'm not even going to say that I know normal people commit murder. But just because it's rare and just because it normally doesn't happen doesn't exclude normal people by your definition from being able to commit murder.<br /><br /><i>It seems to me be to a strategy of theists is to exaggerate the degree of "bad" in the world in order to justify a god, and his judgment.</i><br /><br />If I do this it is unintentional;)<br />But really though, I realize I am being general and I don't mean to put murder on the same page as lying, but I do believe they are both bad behaviors. I will try to be better at not oversymplifying.<br /><br /><i>we don't intend to make mistakes, yet we get judged on our intentions. two different things.</i><br /><br />Ok they are different but it can be our intentions that make the difference between mistake and on purpose(intent). So I don't see a problem with judging intention because I see it a a difference maker.<br /><br /><i>not if you don't believe in god do you? I'm going to spend eternity paying for my poor judgement arent' I?</i><br /><br />Well now that depends on who you talk to. I can't judge that. You seem like a smart person and well grounded with good intentions. Maybe you just haven't seen or heard that thing or things that will change your mind about God. In LDS theology every single person has to have the chance to accept or reject the gospel. We may be completely wrong and the hindus are right.Richhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05816549810869986623noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2001916466643391714.post-32187636858561693862009-12-18T13:02:39.709+00:002009-12-18T13:02:39.709+00:00No one could be functioning in the normal range an...<b><i>No one could be functioning in the normal range and act badly? </i></b><br />its not that simple, context, context, context. It seems to me that there is an inverse relationship to being normal and acting badly. The badder you are, the less normal you are. would you agree?<br /><br /><i><b>I know lots of people I would consider in a normal range that make mistakes. I think I'm normal(up for debate) and I make mistakes. I make bad choices, not habitually but it can happen.</b></i><br />we don't intend to make mistakes, yet we get judged on our intentions. two different things.<br /><br /><b><i>You are also missing that people can be forgiven of their mistakes and bad choices, because lets be frank here we all make mistakes and make bad choices, so you don't have to spend eternity paying the price of your bad choices/mistakes.</i></b><br />not if you don't believe in god do you? I'm going to spend eternity paying for my poor judgement arent' I? <br /><br /><i><b>Scriptures, and not just the bible. Remember that's one reason Mormons are not considered Christian, we don't hold the bible as the only book of scripture and we believe that it has mistakes and problems.</b></i><br />How do you know they weren't just made up? They sure seem like it to the majority of people. Most christians think hindu scripture is trash, most hindus think christian scripture is trash, neither of you have a strong enough case to convince the other. Its not that way with fire, cars, vaccinations, aspirin, etc. almost everyone accepts those without much question. Because they are believable, and justifiable, and you don't have to "open yourself" up and spend years waiting for the spirit or whatever.<br /><br /><b><i>Study and prayer have lead me to a conviction of this conviction.</i></b><br />you've reinforced your own beliefs just like the muslims and hindus and native americans do, congratulations.<br /><br /><i>and why don't hindus or jews talk like that? <b>The ones I know do talk like that about their own beliefs.</b></i><br />but what your not saying is that THEY ARE WRONG. Come on Rich. <br /><br /><b><i>But for God to be perfect in every way, does he have to be 100% just and 100% merciful at the same time? Because anything less than 100% of either would be imperfect. Am I wrong here?</i></b><br />you are right, and you have just stumbled onto one of the aspects of incohernece in "perfect".<br />In gods justice, and "all things go for the greater good", their is profound inequity, that usually enjoyed by those people that say "all things go for the greater good". <br />Its easy to say that when your not the victim of fraud, theft, drunk driver killing your sister, all those out of the ordinary things that don't have the emotional impact day to day as daily study and prayer do.<br />One mans trash is another mans treasure, and one mans misfortune is another mans gain.<br />In a gods world, the victim is expected to be happy about being the victim because they are "a tool" for the greater good.<br />And the victim gets blamed by the righteous because "they probably were doing something they shouldn't be".<br /><br />Evil is just a label, man, it doesn't really exist. It called <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reification_%28fallacy%29" rel="nofollow">reification</a>.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17353286859864448748noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2001916466643391714.post-78890835723519851912009-12-18T12:59:45.206+00:002009-12-18T12:59:45.206+00:00HI richdster,
I don't know anything but I thin...HI richdster,<br /><b><i>I don't know anything but I think that it is possible for normal people to do bad things, and even make mistakes.</i></b><br />agreed <br />But what do you mean by NORMAL and what do you mean by BAD? And where does intention fit in? we don't intend to make mistakes. We get judged on our intentions don't we, so mistakes really shouldn't be included in any talk of judging bad behavior.<br /><br /><b><i>Do you know that every single person that commits murder is NOT in the normal range you proposed?</i></b><br />it depends on what you mean by normal. In my definition of normal people, no normal people don't commit murder. In your world, do normal people commit murder? Normal people go poop, and sneeze, and it happens pretty regularly, making it something normal. <br />Murder is rare, it doesn't normally happen. <br />How many sneezes have you seen? How many murders have you seen?<br />this isn't scientific but I think you get the point.<br />It seems to me be to a strategy of theists is to exaggerate the degree of "bad" in the world in order to justify a god, and his judgment.<br /><br /><b><i>Every person who has ever commited murder or stole something or lied is in catasrophic failure of the system? </i></b><br />you've got several different degrees of BAD behavior mixed up in there mister. Lets not lump them together okay?<br />some are catastrophic failures of the system, some are not. It depends on the context. Is capital punishment murder? Is joy killing murder? Is shooting the enemey in wartime murder? Is lying to old people to get thier money catastrophic failure? Is lying to old people making them feel better about getting old catastrophic failure? <br />context, context, context,<br />we need to resist the urge to oversimplify, because if we do, we are going to wind up saying some crazy things.Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17353286859864448748noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-2001916466643391714.post-37525969494344202802009-12-17T17:23:08.810+00:002009-12-17T17:23:08.810+00:00Hi Quinnster,
I don't know anything but I thi...Hi Quinnster,<br /><br />I don't know anything but I think that it is possible for normal people to do bad things, and even make mistakes. Do you know that every single person that commits murder is NOT in the normal range you proposed? Every person who has ever commited murder or stole something or lied is in catasrophic failure of the system? No one could be functioning in the normal range and act badly? They all must be in or close to catastrophinc failure? I would be surprised if that is you position. I know lots of people I would consider in a normal range that make mistakes. I think I'm normal(up for debate) and I make mistakes. I make bad choices, not habitually but it can happen. You are also missing that people can be forgiven of their mistakes and bad choices, because lets be frank here we all make mistakes and make bad choices, so you don't have to spend eternity paying the price of your bad choices/mistakes. <br /><br /><i>What do you have to go on?</i><br /><br />Scriptures, and not just the bible. Remember that's one reason Mormons are not considered Christian, we don't hold the bible as the only book of scripture and we believe that it has mistakes and problems.<br /><br /><i>How are you so certain?</i><br /><br />Study and prayer have lead me to a conviction of this conviction.<br /><br /><i>and why don't hindus or jews talk like that?</i><br /><br />The ones I know do talk like that about their own beliefs.<br /><br />I am still curious to know your answer to this question: <i>But for God to be perfect in every way, does he have to be 100% just and 100% merciful at the same time? Because anything less than 100% of either would be imperfect. Am I wrong here?</i>Richhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05816549810869986623noreply@blogger.com